Three's a Crowd

The most important thing you can do when introducing a new dog to the pack is to assert leadership. You need to be in total control of the situation, with every dog in the household recognizing your authority. In my work, I meet so many warm and generous people who take animals into their homes. They just reach out and adopt strays out of the goodness of their heart, no matter how many other pets they have at home. However, with dogs, the more of them you have, the more important it is that you 100% commit yourself to letting them know that you -- and you alone -- are the pack leader. For example, once Dog #1 and you have a leader-follower relationship, the rest will fall into line, though only if you behave consistently with every other animal. In other words, Dog #3 will see that Dogs #1 and #2 are calm-submissive, which to him means he is entering a balanced pack. Dogs that spend time at my Dog Psychology Center rehabilitate so quickly because of this dynamic. Everyone knows their place and no one questions authority and leadership. See, dogs need to feel like they "fit in" just as humans do and usually that drive to belong neutralizes a lot of unwanted behavior. In other words, most well-meaning owners adopt unstable dogs into an unbalanced pack, hoping the new addition will balance everything out, but more likely than not, the opposite happens -- it intensifies the pack's unbalanced state.
Categories: S2:Ep17:Dax, Pete, Nixa, Sugar & Snowflake
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Thank you for this Timely Reminder about the proper way to introduce a new dog into a home. A week ago I made the difficult decision to put my 9 yr old Chow/Shepard mix, Foxy, to sleep after a unsucessful 3 month battle with a "suspected" Mega-esophigas/hormone related disease - just would not eat anything. I was at a Pet Store today that had rescue pet adoptions. I have always adopted my pets from rescue groups, but felt I wasn't emotionaly ready yet to adopt a beautiful Irish Setter mix they were introducing me to. I have a Dalmation mix and Pekinese at home now (both from rescue groups). This note has reminded me that I need reaffirm myself as leader before bringing any other dogs into our pack. Thanks for the info!

32paws,

I'm so sorry for your loss, you have my deepest sympathies, and blessings to you for adopting from rescues!
You'll know when the time is right to bring in a new member of the pack...and when you do I'm sure it will be a great success.
I waited a month before adopting a new rescue when we lost our darling chi last winter but I know it can take longer for others to be ready.
Best wishes!

32 paws you have my sympathy too, and I also lost my dollie chow Foxie to cancer just a short month ago. Vets gave her a few weeks - four years ago with her cancer. Alternative medicine gave her those extra years of quality life. I learned from my other other dogs with cancer so Foxie is the one I got right and felt good about. So I went to pets911 and adopted another two weeks later. Do you know that CEsar talks about how death in his book? I found it incredibly comforting. Just look for that informtion in the wonderful index in the back.

Thing is - Foxie was the last non-Cesarized dog I had, so when I brought the new adotpee in following Cesar's way of introducing dogs, it was a smooth transition! He turned into this big brother, showing her how the house was run, including using the doggie door, and running with us on our bike run within two hours! Her training has been remarkably easy and it is so much easier for me to be consistent because my old triggers from the old days are gone.

I cannot tell you the incredible differnce it makes to be in a house with 100% Cesarized dogs. Signal, my last red-zone rescue, was brought in using 100% Cesar techniques because I was so out of my depth from my own skills - I couldnt let up with him for a moment. My other two dogs had lived in the old way for over 10 years and undoing my mistakes and being consistent was the most difficult!

Matthew Gilbert wrote a wonderful article about Cesar in the A and E at boston.com yesterday about how Cesar shows us how we all have a "superhero's cape"of our natural personal power, if we would only pull it out and use it. I actually have a suspician that that is what his detractors truly fear. The more we learn to take care of ourselves and our challenges using Cesar's teachniques, not only are there less and less problem dogs, but we need their services less and less.

I am a big fan of Ceaser , wathcing all the episodes, bought the books and the dvd as well. I have one strong feeling what i wanna share with you. HE IS A MAN, ( I am a woman) and it makes a big difference. He is strong makes sports himself and very energetic. I am lazy etc. I have 4 dogs anyway, 2 saint bernard , a white shepherd and a black erman shepherd. I was trying to follow Ceasers way with my dog and i did not succeed. I am not that dominant simply. What i do instead to be the pack leader i am just myself and behaving how it is comfortable for me. And it works. I am even not consequent sometimes . And i can tell you it works for me, strongly do whatever i just feel like. I am not using a choke collar, and somtimes i am not the fist to cross the door . I think that in our new world dogs are different and they have different role. The y are our friends and we are not dominating our friends. I myself would hate if someone would tell me what to do all the time. I try rather to live together with the dogs in a mutual confortable way. It can work too. What i mean you dont have to be so much a pack leader all the time if you are nota man like Ceasar.

Happy Queeni,
first of all, what do you mean by:.."in our new world dogs are different and they have different role..."?
Let me say first that I really appreciate your love for dogs but obviously, you are watching Dog Whisperer but you don't listen. Everything you said was against Ceasars' philosophy. Didn't you learn anything from watching DVD and reading the book? You said that you tried to follow Ceasars's philosophy but did not succeed so obviously you have some issues with your dogs and if you listened at all to Ceasars' way, giving them love and letting them get away with anything won't help.
Anyway, I don't mean to be harsh. As I said, thank you for taking care of your dogs and let me say that I hope that they all are "Happy-go-lucky-dogs. Ivo

I have had Australian Shepherds for the past 12 yrs. After losing my first aussie (the best dog in the world, who spoiled me rotten!) in Feb 2005 I waited a few months and adopted a 7 yr old. She was quite the handful when we first brought her home! Lots of baggage! I hadn't heard of Ceasar til only recently. So then, 6 months after bringing her home we got a new 8 week old puppy! Wow, talk about glutten for punishment! Well, almost a year later the household is finally starting to settle in. My best tip that I came away with after reading Ceasar's book was the use of the 'soft bite' correction! The dogs really respond! Aussie's are very sensitive.

I'm considering one more but is three really a crowd?

I have a small, mixed breed dog that is about ten pounds in weight. I recently got a spaniel puppy that my little dog hates, and I'm worried that they might have a big fight when they get older. I am seriously worried about the little one's life; because when the spaniel grows up, he will be about 80 pounds and I don't want him hurting the little one. I'm not asking for help, I just want to warn people that this is what happens when you don't introduce a new member of the family properly.

Welcome back, Cesar!

It's amazing how starting out with just one stable dog will help other dogs.

I think sometimes people don't realise how a dog will pay attention to the group dynamics before almost anything else when in a new situation. They watch us and they watch how the dogs we live and interact with relate to us as leaders, to find their place.

It's almost too simple...but it IS the key. It's like the walk. You mean this simple exercise can change my relationship with my dog? Yes, if you follow the rules it communicates a lot to the dog. Takes the energy level down pretty good, too.

I really believe in the importance of establishing leadership.

From what I've learned about social animals, sorting out who is who and who is in charge is established before they can procede as a functional, cohesive group - whether it is a group of two or fifty. This is the very first thing dogs do in a social situation.

I have come to understand this is extremely important to a dog's stability. If they are confused about their place, they can fall apart, become aggresive, or even flip-flop between dominant and submiissive behaviors, depending on who they are interacting with...which are usually humans who are flip-flopping between displaying dominance and submission in the "dog's" eyes!

Consistancy counts. Dogs don't take turns being in charge and don't understand when we try to be equal partners with them. What we would do to to be "fair" with another human, confuses them.

Dogs watch how other dogs relate to you, too. A stable Dog #1, helps create a stable dog #2, and so on. My own dog influences the dogs I work with. She's my helper, but I am always the Pack Leader.

Looking forward to the new episodes! :)

Deb

"I’m considering one more but is three really a crowd?"

Hi, BJ! I guess the definition of what makes a crowd is really up to each individual. We recently added dog #2 after begging my DH for years and then finally deciding I was happy with 1- as soon as I became content with 1, he was ready for #2...sigh...anyway, I always had two dogs at a time growing up, with no problems, but you know what they say about having dogs as a child "there was an adult in the shadows doing all of the real WORK!" and now I'm that adult. I don't mind, but in my journey to the arrival of dog #2, I happened to read a bit of author Jon Katz's writings on his experience with his own dogs. What struck me was his brutal honesty when he mentioned that while he loved all of his dogs and was pleased with them, their successes, abilities, achievements and differences, he truly was aware that having more than just the two he started with meant that he would never really be able to devote enough individual time and attention each of them deserved, in order to give them the best, most attentive training possible. That realization always tends to make the author sad, although he's also happy with his life the way it is.

I hadn't thought of that aspect, myself, before reading the books. I admit I'm definitely kept on my toes trying to make sure my original dog gets enough "one-on-one" time, and also that I stay on top of the new puppy and teach it the house rules!

Something to think about.

Help!! We are "adopting" a 9 month old boxer from our daughter. The problem is that our dog is old, and the puppy outweighs her by 30 pound already. When they get near each other, the puppy just plain runs her over and knocks her down trying to play. Our dog wants no part of it, and jsut tries to get away. Any ideas on how to get the two to get along? I have watched Cesar's programs (all of them), and I have yet to find where he addresses anything like this (including in his book).
Any help would be appreciated.

Darcy,

It's your job as Pack Leader to supervise this pup's behavior and interaction with your other dog. It's good that your older dog is simply avoiding the youngster right now and waiting for you to handle it. But, if you do nothing this could change.

Keep the younger dog on a leash when they are together and keep in between them. Use a corrective tone and block the dog or use the leash and don't allow this behavior. No need to be harsh with the leash or get frustrated, pups need patience - especially when learning manners and what you want from them. Just be firm and consistant. Set some boundaries for this young dog, and make sure everyone in the household sticks to them.

Get the two dogs out for a walk together each morning and follow Cesar's walking principles to get them moving together with you as leader. If the younger dog is too full of energy, get him out for a power walk by himself first, then walk as a group.

It's important that you are the leader and not simply let them work it out by themselves. Neither one should be in charge, only the humans of the house are the leaders, the dogs are both the followers.

Darcy,
I suggest checking out the questions Cesar answers on Pets911(.com). He addresses this exact situation in one of the June questions (I think). But basically, he says that to introduce a puppy to an older dog, the puppy needs to be TIRED!! Otherwise you will be creating a bad experience for your current dog. Also, I would suggest crate training so that the puppy and older dog are not left alone together without supervision. You do not want the puppy (who will just be wanting to play) to cause any harm to your current dog. This is going to take alot of work on your part, but if you keep the puppy calm and submissive (i.e. TIRED), then as the puppy grows, the two can become the best of friends.

You should also start right away in introducing boundaries to the puppy. Do not let the puppy get overly excited or too rough in play with the older dog. If you consistently correct the puppy (and tire him/her out) anytime she gets too rough with your older dog, the puppy will learn to respect the boundaries of your older dog.

I hope this helps some, but definitely check out Cesar's q&a sections on Pets911.

Hope you enjoy your new boxer pup! They are a fabulous breed, they just needs LOTS of exercise and LOTS of leadership:)

WOW! Amazing the timing of this! We have 2 Jack Russells, Jax and Chloe, both are 7 years young and we've recently adopted another Jack Russell, ZAK! who is 11 months old. Talk about leading the pack! I have been following Ceasar's theories for some time, and the older dogs know who the pack leader is, although my husband has yet to learn! ha ha..just kidding. It took a couple days, but everyone has adapted well, and are playing like Jack Russells do! It's amazing to watch them learn from each other. ZAK love water, the other two hate it, however suddenly, as a result of Zak's fixation with running water, Jax has decided to join in the fun! Chloe looks one wondering "what the heck is this all about...no thanks!" The only problem we have right now, is that Zak is learning the boundries of our yard. We live in a non fenced community. He'll get it...Sooner rather than later, I hope. I'm patient. If anyone has any tips, I'd love to have them. The other two have always stuck close to home and didn't really require training...Please feel free to let me know! Thanks, and have a wonderful weekend!

Sarah & CJ -

Thanks SO MUCH for your well wishes and support! I can tell you truely understand the loss of a long loved pet.

Darcy, I would aslo reccomend treadmill. We have recently started using one with our dogs and it works wonders. Make sure, though, to keep walking your dog as this is the best way to bond and establish your leadership.

I had a problem with a dog introduction that has led to some lasting behavior issues that I am trying to tackle and would love some advice. The history of the situation: I have 2 Gordon setters and live in the country. One day, the neighbor from across the street came over to bring some veggies and her ~10 yr old female Golden mix came with her. Her dog is an only dog and has a lot of alpha behaviors and initially there was some tenseness between her dog and my 4 yr old male (it was his turf) manifest by growling and tense sniffing. I followed the advice from the show and exerted my influence by being calm and in comtrol, letting them deal with things a bit on their own without talking but also (Tssh! when either dog growled or snapped) Both of them saw me as alpha and all went well. They were running and chasing a ball within a few minutes with no fighting or growling (whew! I thought it was great! Thanks Cesar!). Then a couple of weeks later, they stopped by again but this time I was inside when they knocked on the door. Row greated with his usual enthusiasm (barking at the door) but as I opened to go out and he went with me, he surprised her and she jumped him. A "sorta fight" ensued- no actual biting flesh, a little hair flew but neither dog rolled. Row crouched and barked like crazy. But she went after him (and my very docile female who was running around in her usual "duh" mode). My neighbor was embarrassed and tried to console them. I told her to stop and I put a leash on mine, she grabbed her dog's collar and we reintroduced them just outside the yard- and all went okay again. They are not friends but on even ground at least. We can keep working on this.

This was a long story to put a new behavior into context- since then, when Row meets new dogs (in the marina where we keep out boats), if they show the least bit of aggression (curiously, worse with females?), he does the crouch and bark thing- which is loud and does not go well in small spaces like a marina. I can correct at the time but he's so defensive, it tends to feed into the situation, often leading to stress from the other owner (who assume he's acting mean because he's loud). The last time it happened, I asked the other owner to hand me his dog (who was also on a leash of course) and took them both with me for a short run. We had another barking round about 15 feet from them but then they calmed down and we went back on loose leashes for both. I don't see how to deal with this as a general behavior from my dog but realize it must be something I can do - because I see those introductions to the pack. I guess the short question to the long story is how to I break his response to other dogs- especially when I have no control and a lot of politics involved with the other owners.

Hey, well to start off I have two indoor female dogs that I have been together for about three years. Recently I found a female puupy that I have brought home and now stays inside with the other two. Well, just awhile ago everytime they were together and the puupy came around they would fight. Now it has gotten so bad that the puppy doesn't have to be anywhere near them and they go at each others throats. I fear that they will hurt each other. Do I have to get rid of the puppy or can this all be worked out? I have seen Cesar's show and have tried showing them that I am pack leader but I don't know I must be doing something wrong. Any advice would be a big help.

Tricia,

I was in the same siuation. Three females. Two of them were friends, untill we adopted the third one. In the beginning they were doing ok but after a few months fighting started. The third puppy was unspayed (which we didn't know, we found her abbandoned) and when she went in heat, the other two dogs fighted badly every day. I have kept them separated for a whole year, putting up gates in the kichen. I thought they would live all their lives separated, but then I saw the show about two pit bulls fighting. Cesar's answer was to walk them together. I started doing that with my dogs. At first my husband held one dog on one side of the road, I walked another one on the other side. A home they were still separated. With time they could be closer, and then I could walk them by myself. It took us three months, but my dogs became friends again, and since the end of May they are together, without any gates again. All three are getting along great. They haven't fighted at all since getting together, they sleep next to each other, and stick their heads through the same window in the van.
So there is hope for you. Walk your fighting dogs together. A lot. This will help, I am sure about it.Looking back I see now how much work it was to have them separated all the time. Now my life seems so easy.

HI
I love to watch your shows. my question is,I have two toy fox terriers, and would love to take them for walks, but where I live there are to many big dogs running around not on a leash. I am afraid to take them out. What can I do instead of waking them? thank you

I missed the live-chat with Cesar, and am very saddened by that. I recently lost a pit bull named Mac. He was very high-strung, and always jumping fences and destroying things & property. He was extremely intelligent, and also loving. But, he would get over excited around us. If I reprimanded him, he would become agitated and urinate while dodging in frantic circles.

He finally chewed through the large cable which supplies power to the main AC unit to my home, and was electrocuted immediately. I was devastated to find him laying next to the unit, expired. Before this dog, I had eight other Pit Bull Terriers, and all lived to be at least 12 years of age (two lived to the age of 15).

This breed of Dog is very strong willed, and both my male and female constantly fought for dominance among themselves. My first male refused to relinquish any dominance, and remained Alpha Dog until his death in 1994. Even though he would comply with my requests to go outside, or into the kennel, he would growl as he walked past me. He was never completely submissive at any time.

All my previous Pit Bull dogs have been show dogs, and well-bred with superior lineage and papers, etc. I was very involved in educating people about this breed of dog, and still love this particular breed above all others. I have an attraction to the apex of most species, and consider Pit Bulls to be this type of animal in the Dog World. I am considering "saving" another Pit Bull from the local pound, (who actually contacts me all the time with these dogs, and I usually find OTHER homes for them).

I am not sure if I want to adopt again. If so, should I adopt a male or a female? I only want one to begin with this time, and do not want to have the same negative experience I did with Mac and the others. Mac was impossible to control, and became more of a nuisance than an enjoyment/companion. Even my first male, Jack, was impossible to control. He could do anything he wished at anytime. He knew how to open doors, climb fences, etc. We even nicknamed him Houdini, as he was a master of escape.

Me being female was also more of a challenge when it came to these dogs. This remains in the back of my mind, and I'm not sure if the male dogs of this species react better to human men verses women, or what? I do not want a dog which is too much to handle, and past experience has proven this to be the case with most of these dogs. The only ones I ever owned which were compliant, were females. They were quiet, obedient and extremely well behaved. I had a Staffordshire that was an angel, and would never do anything unless she was told (including walking out of the gate to the front of the house, or coming inside the door, etc). She was so polite and mannered. She would not take a bite of food, unless I said it was okay to eat. I know this is the other end of the spectrum, and just happened by nature (I never did anything to make her this way).

I would love some insight on this dilemma, if anyone is able to offer any. Thanks!

Lisa-

As you know, pitt bulls are a wonderful breed of dog, and people mistake pent up energy for aggression because of what people have unfortunately used this dog for. Any dog, given the proper amount of excersize, discapline, rules, boundaries, and limitations, and affection last can be the perfect companion. I am sure that if you watch the dog whisperer, you have already done, or know what I am talking about. Before, I got my dog, I wanted a rottweiler, or german shepherd or a large, energetic type. After learning more and watching the dog whisperer every episode before I went looking for a dog at the pound, I realized that the look, breed, or gender of a dog is not as important as the disposition of a dog, and how well you think you can handle it because if you are a rather soft natured person (like me), you do not want to try and take on a high energy, hard tempered dog. Same thing if you are a very hard, dominant and energetic person, then you would not match well with a soft, submissive type of dog. No matter how cute the dog is at the moment, its always safer to go for the dog that matches your personality best. I was able to rehabilitate a very scared soft dog because I am of an easy going nature. I think that when you go to the pound, spend a little time with a couple of different types of dogs, pitt bulls, pitt mixes, or maybe even try another breed if you feel experimental. Look for personality. Dogs in cages never show their true colors behing bars. Also, ask the kennel employees who they think has the best disposition. They will give you a far more accurate idea of whos got a good, more easygoing, responsive type personality. After all, they are the people who spend the most time with all of the dogs in there. I know from expereince of working at the humans society kennel that I was able to match up owners with dogs that they ened up falling in love with. One final suggestion is to take your time in looking for a dog, greiving (which I am very sorry to hear about your loss), learning and considering what ways you can train your new dog, and watching and studying Cesars techniques. Do not feel that you have to make an immedeate decision the moment you spot your dog. If you feel that you might find a more suitable dog in a week or so, well please by all means do yourself a favor and wait because you should plan on up to 15 years of your life that this dog will be with you. Try sleeping on it and see if you continue to think of that very dog. There is still a chance that you will automatically know that is your perfect dog as soon as you see him/her. Follow your instincts on this one because you are already doing a wondeful favor to a pet by following your heart and adopting a rescue dog. Good Luck! ;)

Hi Everyone
We are new to watching the Dog Whisperer. We have four dogs and three cats. We have one dog named Rascal that comes and goes as he pleases which is okay. He is the dog leader of the pack and the others acknowledge him as the dog leader when we are not around. Rascal is a rescued mixed breed dog. We have a beagle named Bunny. She is 20 pounds over weight and we are working with the vet about her obsessive behavior about food. She is now separated from the pack because she starts fights. We have a male German Sheppard that is almost all sable named Thor. He is the largest of the dogs and is our gentle giant. We have a female German Sheppard that is almost all black and the youngest named Loki. She has been labeled a brat because she is very curious about everything. Both German Sheppards are very large and over a hundred pounds. They are not fat just very big.

Bunny attacks Loki every chance she gets. They have even growled and jump at a door that divides them. We have a cat door and they will fight through it.

Before Loki came Bunny was always with me. She would take naps with me and we would play in yard (we have over two acres fenced in) I love Bunny and she is great for snuggling. When we found out my husband would be deployed we got Loki as added security. Bunny acted like Loki's mother and would watch her and take care of her. Loki was just six weeks old. If the other dogs got to rough with Loki, Bunny would nudge them away. I use to keep both dogs with me all the time. I had Bunny on one side and Loki on the other.

Bunny is obsessive about food and treats. All the dogs get one treat a day. Bunny would try and take the treats from the others except for Rascal. Loki always gave her treat every time Bunny wanted it. One day our workman was playing sticks with Loki. Loki is the only one that will retrieve a stick or a ball. Bunny must have thought it was a treat because she challenged Loki for the stick. Loki gave it to her. Bunny wasn't happy and backed Loki into a corner. Loki had nowhere to go so she stood her ground. Bunny went after Loki. Luckily the Workman was able to separate the two dogs. Bunny had to have stitches. And Loki was very scared.

After months of being separated, when my husband returned he saw that the two dogs were getting along better through the fence and decided that would be okay to put together. We put them together and we all went inside to leave them alone. We were told by the Vet that they were fighting over me. Everything was a little tense but no fighting until my Husband went out to get Bunny to put her back in the dog pen. When Loki came near my husband and Bunny, Bunny attacked Loki. When I came out to help pull them apart it was all I could do to hold Bunny back. Loki was more than willing to back off as long as Bunny didn't attack. Bunny was torn up very badly and came very close to having the vein in her neck ripped open. Bunny had to have surgery to repair the damage. We have decided never to put them together again.

Bunny gets along fine with the other dogs. They accept her and there isn't any problems. She accepts them too.

I hate this because I can't spend time with my two most favorite dogs at the same time. Loki gets more attention now because she can come to where ever I am outside.

The Vet says this is about being the dominate female in the pack.

This episode has given me some hope that they might be able to come back together. Is there a video or book that explains how to deal with fighting dogs? We consider this very extreme.

Hi Cesar, I have a 4year old female German Shepherd named Annie. She is the best dog I have ever owned except for one glitch! She hates little yapping dogs. She is a rescued dog with her first year spent undergoing abuse. She is very aggresive toward little dogs. When I walk her, I put on her an anti-bark collar, a halti strap for her head and a muzzle. How can I train her to walk past those little dogs without so much paraphanalia? I don't have the strength to control her when she is as aggressive with out all that stuff on her.

Hello.

Help!

We had two male dogs who lived together very peacefully for eight years, until one of them died of cancer about 6 weeks ago. We decided we wanted another dog. We finally chose a 2 year-old female border collie mix at a shelter who seemed very gentle and not too hyper for our 9 year-old dog to handle.

Our 9 year-old dog is a large newfoundland/lab mix who has always been a dominant dog. Most of the time he gets along very well with other dogs, but has had occasional signs of aggression. He is still very active.

Anyway, we had them meet at a park and walked them together very successfully. After the long walk, we brought them home into our fenced yard and let them loose. They were fine for a few minutes, until the new dog jumped on me and our resident dog charged at her and a major fight ensued. We thought one of them would get hurt, so after struggling for a bit, my husband and I managed to pull them apart. My husband was bit, but the dogs seemed okay. Right after that, they tried to fight again, but only snarling and snapping occurred.

This happened 5 days ago and since then, we have walked them successfully together, and have had them both on leashes in the backyard. We also have the new dog in a crate in our family room in the evening, so we can all be together, but no fights can occur. It seems to be going well, until they get close to each other and usually the new dog will start growling at our old dog, then our older dog does it back.

It seems as if we will never be able to let them be together off leash. This is extremely difficult and we have to alternate who is in the house and yard and can't put them into the car together etc. I also feel I can't walk them myself (with my two year-old)because if something breaks-out, I won't be able to handle it, and my husband works late a lot. The problem seems to be that our first dog does not think of us as leaders and the second dog is challenging our first one for dominance. We knew it wouldn't be easy, but we are starting to think it won't ever work out.

How long should we deal with this, or could it be that we made the wrong decision on our choice of dog? I don't want to give up too quickly, but I can't see doing this for months!

Lisa

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