Evolution Discussion
On February 8th, beginning at 7p e/p, I'll be gathering scholars, professors, and theologians to talk about the topic of evolution and its importance in today's society right here on the Inside NGC Blog. We will be discussing not only the topic, but also the progression of the theory, the role it currently has in science and its role in teaching science to students.
Now I understand that there is some controversy surrounding this topic, and that's ok. We welcome all participation in this discussion, so please think of the topic and submit a question to us.
Please join us in what should be an interesting and enlightening conversation. Submit a question, or for you passionate types, comment here for the chance for it to be responded to by these experts on the night of February 8th.
A blog not your thing? Start the conversation before it starts in our Evolution Forum

By the way its Charles Darwin's 200th birthday on February 12th. For more on Evolution you can also check out PBS' documentary Evolution
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28 Comments
With all the millions of years inbetween these major transformations, there would obviously be hundreds of millions of transitional fossils in between. I have never seen one (let alone millions), which I find unusual and hard to explain. Can you offer some ideas on this?
Read this
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/2/5/9452/77682/354/693234
Mike
Have you ever been to a museum? If so, then you've seen transitional fossils. QED.
That's a glib answer Strider- where is the fossil evidence of anything with a true transitional form? Not a fully formed animal- but one showing a transformation from one to another? I am genuinely curious. Also if evolution pushes 'upward' why do lower life forms remain? I mean why do we still have single cell bacteria & 'simple' invertabrates? Why didn't they climb up the ladder with their 'more fit' desendants? If they are fit enough to survive why did they evolve at all?
Mike C and Hardwood83 really need to watch the show and get some education. Here's the answer: EVERY species is a transitional one - from what is was before to what it will be. This show just concentrates on the dramatic ones. Evolution doesn't 'push' upward or any other way. There is no 'direction'.
Here's a simple example:
Start with a single species. Some of the members migrate, walk, fly, are pushed, etc into another different environment. They will evolve to match the new environment, the ones who remained behind won't. Eventually you have two species where there used to be one. The old ones didn't 'go away' and there is no 'upward' push - just change. There are many excellent books explaining this much better than I can in a blog comment. Have fun learning, it's an exciting subject.
Question #1: Pertaining to the origin of life: In 1998, Klaus Dose, one of the foremost biochemists in the world, said this: "More than thirty years of experimentation on the origin of life in the fields of chemical and molecular evolution have led to a better perception of the immensity of the problem of the origin of life on earth rather than to its solution. At present all discussions on principle theories and experimentations in the field either end in stalemate or in a confession of ignorance" (1). Since then, not much has changed. Aside from the idea of extraterrestrial seeding (which only moves the location of the origin of life, and does not solve it), how do you respond to this?
(1) "The Origin of Life: More Questions than Answers," Interdisciplinary Science Review 13, (1998), 348
Question #2: Pertaining to the anthropic principle, or "fine-tuning" of the universe: According to Robin Collins, physics Ph.D. and prominent science speaker, if the strength of the force of gravity (relative to the total range of natural force strengths, with gravity being the weakest and the strong nuclear force being the strongest) differed from its present value by one part in 10^22, life would be impossible (2). Furthermore, if the cosmological constant (the energy density of empty space) were off by one part in 10^53, that would also make life impossible (3). These are but two of many such parameters, all of which must be set with similar degrees of precision, that are required for life. Aside from the infinite multiverse hypothesis (which has no supporting evidence whatsoever), how do you say that a naturalistic view of the origin of the universe can possibly account for this? In case you are going to refer to the Weak Anthropic Principle, please see this http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/theistic-proofs/the-teleological-argument/the-argument-from-fine-tuning/the-weak-anthropic-principle/
(2) Collins, Robin, Interview with Lee Strobel in: Strobel, Lee, "The Case for a Creator: a journalist investigates the scientific evidence that points toward God." Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2004.
(3) Ibid.
Question #3: Pertaining to Ernst Haeckel's embryo drawings: these drawings, which show striking similarities between embryos of diverse species, are prominently featured in most, if not all, biology textbooks today. The principle that these demonstrate is called "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny, " basically meaning that, as they develop in their earliest stages, animals retrace their evolutionary history. However, evolutionary experts have recognized for more than a century that these drawings were deliberately faked. According to Dr. Jonathan Sarfati, within months of their publication, "L. Rtimeyer, professor of zoology and comparative anatomy at the University of Basel, showed [them] to be fraudulent. William His Sr., professor of anatomy at the University of Leipzig...corroborated Rtimeyer's criticisms."(4) In 1965, evolutionist George Gaylord Simpson said, "It is now firmly established that ontogeny does not recapitulate phylogeny."(5) In 1997, Dr. Michael Richardson photographed the embryos featured in Haeckel's drawings and showed them to bear no resemblance to Haeckel's depictions.(6) In light of the thorough and longstanding discrediting of the drawings, what do you think of the fact that they are still featured in textbooks today?
(4) Sarfati, Jonathan, "Refuting Evolution 2," Green Forest: Master Books, 2002
(5) Simpson, George Gaylord and W. Beck, "An Introduction to Biology," New York: Harcourt Brace and World, 1965
(6) Nigel Hawkes, The Times (London), August 11, 1997, p. 14
Ok, Darth, I'll accept that for arguments sake- evolution is just random change then, not refining or improving, per se. But that doesn't explain the mechanic that is driving it, why are things changing and how do they get from innanimate to alive, simple to complex? We can't observe that so we have to go on the evidence, Agreed? So IF evolution is the epitome of life science then 'just because' is much less satisfactory then "In the beginning..." I need to know why something as incredible as abiogenesis happened (contrary to the 2nd law of Thermodynamics) before I will give any credence to evolutionary theory. Is that unreasonable, to expect a scientific theory to be scientific?
So apparently I posted my questions for the experts in the wrong place. My bad.
Trying to figure out the origins of life on Earth is like trying to win the lottery, which is essentially how the origin of life happened anyway. We are one planet in an unknown number in the universe, and the number of factors involved in life happing to exist here are beyond anyone's imagination. While we seek to scientifically try to disprove theories in order to arrive at the truth of how life arrived here, isn't it safe to say we won the cosmic lottery? Honestly, it's probably something like a 50 trillion to one shot we exist in the first place. Trying to find that one key combination is like trying to crack encryption methods we haven't even concieved yet with a Commodore Vic 20.
The fact that the Earth is even here for life itself is yet another lottery won. To say that were here because of aliens is actually not too far off from my own theory. Judging by the fact that mathematics seems to be the universal language, it's possible to say that intelligent design of a kind is responsible for our being here. Since the universe is structured and ordered, it's not beyond reason to believe that someone or something created it since in both mathematics and logic, there is no equation that arrives at a purely random pattern. We can get close, to it, but randomnality is theoretically impossible in this universe.
While nature seems in most instances to be random, the patterns and events that make up evolution make for major changes with little room for minor mistakes. What this means is nature selects changes by 2 factors. The first factor would Natural Selection, or simply the ability to survive, and the second being the ability to procreate. Changes happen all the time in animals, which we normally name as defects. Weather these changes are evolutionary or because of chemicals or other environmental changes, these are still in my opinion natural attempts for evolutionary change. We affect this all the time with modern medical science attempting to change these defects back to what we currently accept as our natural being. All this does is allow a break down in the natural selection process as people that should have been unable to survive are now able too. This also allows these same people the possibility to procreate and carry over these bad changes when they should have died out, resulting a polluted gene pool that will now only get considerably worse, and only force a slowdown in the evolutionary process. While I don't condone we simply let people with supposed defects die off, with the advent of gene therapy, we should be careful as to what defects we should absolutely work on trying to eliminate as it could have substantial impact on our survival as a species.
Even if a change happens to make it past the Natural Selection process, this is no guarantee that the change will propagate enough to become a new trait in the species. The surviving animal that is carrying forth a new change would still need to procreate in order to pass on those genes, and the succeeding generations would also have to procreate in order for the change to become relevant. Some changes many make it initially, but suffer extinction later on prior to the change propagating throughout the species.
To add to the problems in evolution, we traditionally think of evolutionary changes to be adaptations to the environmental changes. I personally believe that evolutionary change is more or less more random changes that are propagated by the ability to survive in the current environment.
And what about the discoveries of transitional bones or remains? We simply have to look at geology for this. Most of the continental plates that make up the crust of the earth are usually growing on one side while the other side is constantly being driven down into the mantel on the other side, where it is melted down into molten rock and lava and thereby destroying anything it carries with it. Grated, we have found dinosaur bones in some areas that allow us a glance at that overall puzzle. This is no guarantee that we will ever be able to discover enough to fill all the gaps. Evolutionary change can also happen at a dreadfully slow pace making it hard to prove a line of evolution since other factors like the species being nomadic can make piecing the entire line together a chore. Some evolution could possibly take place over a few generations, limiting the number of fossils we could find. Being that the chance of going out in the back yard and digging up some fossils is quite a large number, the chance of finding the entire line of a species is almost astronomical. People can continue to point at the lack of evidence that evolution exist, but this does nothing to prove or disprove it, and only serves to say that they shouldn't be a scientist in the first place since we have yet to search every square inch of earth to disprove it.
Hardwood it's easy to observe things going from random to organized. It's called 'self organizing systems' and they are seen everywhere in nature. A tornado funnel cloud is much more organized than the still air it forms from, but no one designs it. Flocks of birds self organize. A river organizes pebbles of different sizes into distinct groups. A simple demonstration you can do at home: take a shoebox and put a bunch of little magnets inside, just drop them in randomly. Now put the lid on and shake it. Now open it, The magnets will be all clumped together or in a line - much more organization than there was before. The 2nd law doesn't apply when you are adding energy to a system, only to the universe as a whole. So you see that shaking the box added heat to the universe, increasing the entropy, the entropy inside the box went down.
So we have self organization, now there just needs to be a selection mechanism. That is what Darwin discovered. The environment itself is the selector.
I know - God did it seven days and the earth is only 6 thousand years old give or take a few hundred years. WAIT - MAYBE THE SCIENTOLOGIETS ARE RIGHT! (SIC)
I've always wondered why raptor dinosaurs lost their long tails. Tails on modern birds are all relatively short in comparison to their raptor ancestors. So what happened to the tails?
First of all, reptiles never flew. Evolution is missing some very important facts. How did the world begin? The big bang theory?
Really? How then do man and woman come about? They just happened? Are you people for real?
God created all that we see. Earth has only been around a few thousand years. Where do scientists get their facts about dinosaurs being here millions of years ago? NOT TRUE!
Fossilized rock means that the rock was here in prehistoric ages?
1980, Mt St. Helens erupts nand spews volcanic ash over miles and miles of earth in Washington state. Trees are stripped of bark and covered. Three years later, these same trees are found fossilized! Gee, three years, not millions!
Actually, you're almost right and right enough. Tests to determine the accuracy of dating methods have been tried on lava strata only decades old and these dating tests gave them dates of millions, not decades. The problem we're hearing in these shows and interviews is that very broad, unsubstantiated theory is being presented as hard fact, and that's a very bad thing to do.
LOL! Yes mountain girl and topfly - god is the creator of heaven and earth and all the stars in the heaven! The earth is actually flat! cause if not we would fly off it! Science is always trying to trick us! If the bible says it, it must be so! It is the word of god written by the hand of god, not man! Ask the Mormons!
That's a nice, smarmy, intellectually dishonest response, kparc, and typical of rabidly secular evolutionists when stuck with a question they cannot address. You're a credit to your sociopathy.
When I logged on to this site, I expected to exchange thoughts about evolution with like-minded, if "smarmy, intellectually dishonest. . .sociopath(s)." Instead I found the ite polluted with bible-thumping, intellectually lazy louts. I teach science in a fundamentally Christian area of the south, and I've heard these "convenient," albeit false objections to the science of biology. They don't like intellectual objectivity, they refuse to be "confused by the facts," and they really don't want to hear the answers to their questions. When confronted with a scientific, fact-based answer, they obfuscate the debate with more questions. Mountain girl, I fear you and your ilk are the sociopaths. I'm only sorry that the scientists among us aren't allowed to exchange ideas.
Stamyk, Kparc decided the best response was sarcasm, so the response was fair. If you hve an objection to the facts of the dating method tests I cited, please respond accordingly and save the hatred for Christian believers where it might be appreciated.
I wonder what kind of stuff Kirk Cameron and crew will come up with after NGC just proved that a small land walking wolf-like creature can turn into a gianormous Ocean swimming Whales.
The narration on NatGeo TV on evolution in several instances suggests or leaves one with the impression that species, as individuals or groups, made a conscious choice to "evolve or perish". While it makes the story entertaining, I found this very disturbing for a scientific program, and scientifically inaccurate and irresponsible.
Nat Geo TV presenting this information as fact rather than reminding us that all of this is conjecture does not educate but indoctrinates.
In order to come to a full understanding of the origin of life we need only to think of earth as a fruit tree.If we think of earth as a living life form that is able to bear fruit.Able to recreate itself.Sort of like evolving.And that all life form are able to recreate themselves.And that evolution is just a naturally process of all life form.All because of our living planet EARTH!
NATGEO needs to have a disclaimer at the beginning and during beaks in programs dealing with evolution, e.g., Morphed stating that evolution is a theory not a fact. There is little evidence of transitional animals like between the flying/gliding dino and the turkey? Where are all the transitional fossils between no eyes and the complex eyes of today? Bottom line is that all we real know is what's here today and, to some degree, why some things aren't. We don't really know how life started or progressed. Everything we think we know on this subject is either a theory or based on religion, neither of which can be proven. NATGEO should not present this stuff as fact.
PS: The Daily Kos is not a place to go for scientific facts or any kind of reliable information for that matter.
If you don't understand how evolution works, or can work, first understand a couple of simple concepts about evolution.
1. The question of *how* life began from a lifeless world is outside the scope of evolutionary theory. Evolution is concerned with how life diversified.
2. Evolution is not deterministic. There is no lifeform that is more evolved than another and there is no goal to evolution.
3. Evolution is not about changes occuring in single organisms. Evolution works on *populations* of organisms. Generation to generation-- not during the life of a particular creature; your dog will not evolve, the species will.
Oh, and one other thing and this is a very important point to make.
Alan- listen up. The word "theory" has a somewhat different meaning in a scientific context. A theory is an explanation that is supported by observational data. A theory remains a theory even after it has been accepted as fact beyond all reasonable doubt ( as in aerodynamic theory.) So please stop trying to confuse the matter with meaningless phrases like "a theory not a fact"
Go back to your 6th grade science textbook and review the chapters regarding the scientific method.
And the Theory of Gravity is 'only' a theory! Doesn't change the fact gravity exists, it happens, it's observable, it's a fact. The theory of gravity explains the why and how. The same is true for evolution.
On a side note, I find this very amusing, and sadly typical of what I see of many creataionists, trying to stuff so many lies and fallacies and strawmen into as little time as they can. It sickens me so thoroughly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUYi0076CwE&feature=related
Velox, that is a good point.
Gravitational theory is problematic at the present. We have know what causes it, and we can make very accurate observations about it, but we the nagging feeling that the same theories that describe electromagnetism and the nuclear force should be able to account for gravity as well. That is the "holy grail" of physics; the grand unified theory.
That gives me a good opportunity to show that the scientific method is flexible and if such a theory comes to light and withstands scientific scrutiny then our current models describing the gravitational force will be discarded in favor of the newer, more accurate model.
If a new theory describing the diversity of life was put forward and it too stood up to scientific scriutiny then the current theory of evolution would become obsolete. But it must be able to be supported with observational data or else it is not science.
To me the idea of intelligent design, whether by God or by aliens or some other agent is fanciful. It just makes me think of things like cookies being made by elves inside a tree or leprechauns granting wishes.
"Theory Wars"
Evolution vs. Intelligent Design
Op-Ed
By Martin Musatov
Picture if you will an Ouroboros of ignorance. Except this particular snake
eating its own tail keeps getting bigger and bigger with each bite.
The debate of Darwinian evolution versus intelligent design and its teaching
in our public schools is at its core a push-pull between religion and
politics. Mark twain posited, "In religion and politics peoples beliefs and
convictions are in almost every case acquired second-hand, and without
examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions
at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners."
Heady, perhaps, but is it true? Twain also said, "God made idiots for
practice, and then he made school boards." The number of school boards with
members having strong conflicted opinions is increasing.
The conservative religious right protests that the teaching of evolution and
the exclusion of intelligent design from the curriculum in public schools
violate their constitutional right to religion by excluding scientific
theory that supports their beliefs. Furthermore, they demonize the theory
of evolution, hard selling it as an attack on faith itself. Flip the coin
and you have civil libertarians proclaiming that the teaching of intelligent
design favors religion, is intolerant of other belief-systems, and violates
the separation of church and state.
Political debates over divisive issues such as abortion traditionally have a
polarizing effect. The participants in these debates tend not to be a
homogeneous representation of the political spectrum. With respect to the
electorate, they are (at the risk of sounding like Mountain Dew's next
beverage spin-off) extreme overkill.
In political forensics we find that when the loudest voice belongs to the
strongest opinion, the murmurs of non-committed centrists are rarely heard.
In the spirit of debate, the examination of opposing sides from an unbiased
middle is the side mirror of your car; it makes objectives appear closer
than they really are. Conversely, adversarial bias in a debate compounds
ambiguity, making each side appear further away than it is.
Being that the issue is ultimately going to be decided by the courts we need
to recognize that spirituality is personal and intangible; it dulls the
brilliance of our laws. You can bring logic to your beliefs, but you can't
bring your beliefs to logic. However, it is important to never lose sight of
the fact that spirituality is very important to us, and that logic,
especially as it pertains to our legal system is cold and concrete. Unless
we guide with our hearts it is of no use.
So, with each side feeling attacked and pointing fingers at the other, who
should you choose to side with? Neither. In other words, both sides are
wrong. Not the smartest thing to say in a political sense, considering it's
potentially alienating to people who believe in God and people who don't
believe in God, and that's pretty much everybody.
But this is politics. Politicians know better than to insult the beliefs of
a majority of the electorate. That's what spin is for.
A potentially more popular and fundamentally equivalent way to approach the
issue would be to say that both sides are right, in that both sides have a
right to insist the scientific fact and theory they support be included.
Scientific is the key word here. Science is the observation,
identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical
explanation of phenomena. Science transcends beliefs. Unfortunately, so does
ignorance.
Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Agnostic, are we so weak in
our convictions that we feel threatened by science that may or may not cause
us to doubt our spirituality?
Practically speaking, does exposure to scientific theory contrary to what we
believe corrupt our minds and destroy the foundation of our beliefs? Talk
to people on both sides of the gamut and you will often hear that a second
look at previous assumptions and doubts is exactly what helps us be more
comfortable with our spiritual beliefs.
The real issue here is one of distinction, the distinction of scientific
theory and beliefs. Theories are not beliefs. Until they are proven,
theories are conjecture. The difference between conjecture and belief is
faith. Faith or lack thereof has no place in science or our schools. A
belief as personal as ones belief or disbelief in God is not something that
can be taught; it can only be learned, through each of our unique
experiences.
So let's leave the science to the scientists and our beliefs to our hearts.
And regarding those inevitable agendas, let's at least get our facts
straight before we start to distort them.
so i m thinking to myself; "what is the fuss about..? surely creationist and evolutionists can coexist..."
But then i thought about the things/myths/beliefs that are evident through out the world... 1 thing seems to be constant; There is a creator! whatever follows might differ somewhat from culture to culture...
I am quite open minded but do suffer from some ignorance as well... i am not necessarily privy to scientific info but i do stumble over some gems of info from time to time...
Even watching episodes of Supernatural, Harry Porter, i start to realise the similarities between nations when it comes down to the fundamentals of daily life in the olden days when witches were hunted...!
of all the similarities 1 is prevalent and that is THERE IS A CREATOR, whether the Creator is alien or divine is beyond me...
similarities down to black magic beliefs...
one of the episodes(in the aforementioned) show has the main character summoning a demon at the cross roads in order to get a wish granted... month later the wife tells me that she saw a traditional doctor kneeling at the crossroads diggin. She was surprised and i responded by reminding her of the episode i had watched with her... POINT being there are too many correlating beliefs/myths/coincidents in the world for it to be a fluke...
We share the same knowledge and Creator.
evolution can not explain why most cultures believe that "salt is a demon deterrent" that knowledge must come from some"where"
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