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Teaching your dog to sit in front of you!
Hi! Our small problem: First my BC is under the DOWN command and then I call him in Finnish "tänne" he comes straight to my side and sits. I am now retraining him to sit in front of me. I am now teaching him a new command "here" and using two half's of agility jumps on both sides for him to sit correctly in front of me. In other words he comes in between them and sits in front of me :=) This is also possible to do with using two chairs on both sides leaving the gap in between for the dog to come in or two big boxes one box for in front and one box for the side but I found this one a bit too complicated.. heh! I have often been told how BC:s are very clever and quick at learning and when they have learnt something it's hard to change anymore. So I now will keep the "tänne" for certain competitions and use "here" for others. I don't think I'll ever be a very competitive person but I do it because it's fun and if it goes well that's great :=D Though the BH was scary knowing how harsh the judge is.. but now looking back it taught me a lot about me and my dog! I wanted to share my ideas on how I train my dog if any one wants to try them.. I hope these ideas might be helpful for some one..
It is very true when they say that if a bordercollie learns to do something wrong it is really hard to fix the problem :=) We are still having problems with getting him to sit straight in front of me :=( He is fine when the barriers are up on both sides as he can't turn himself sideways but when we practice on the field he automatically goes sideways before sitting. He also still tries to heel too far in front of me but I beleive this problem will get sorted in time :=)
25 Replies
August 15, 2009 4:44 PM
TRACKING:
I now am trying a new thing with tracking..normally I do tracks in the nearby forest but now I'm concentrating on doing them in our garden area :=) I walk backwards so that when I drop the treat the track is as straight as possible, also I walk with one foot behind the other so the line is straight. I use cat food as the prize, my dogs love cat food ( a rare treat for them)! This evening my BC followed the trail excellently, in fact last year he really wasn't all that interested in tracking. This evening he had trouble finding the treat but found it in the end, I let him work in peace, no hurry .=) This is how I was taught:
Tracking can be done anywhere and if you do it in your own garden make sure that the treats are small enough so the dog learns to use it's nose and not its eyes :=D The first time you do a track make it short and drop a treat on every step, leave a great prize at the end of the track either food to enjoy or a toy that you can play with afterwards.. show the dog where the track begins and praise him for putting his noes on the ground. Let the dog work independently, in other words don't keep showing him where the track is going because in time he will expect you to show him, the first few times he will most probably wonder off the track in between but that's normal :=) A good tracking dog tracks carefully but this doesn't mean that every dog will eat every treat! For the first 5-10x do straight tracks using lots of treats and then in time you can do corners!
Tracking is brilliant for tiring a dog mentally..now my BC is fast asleep :=D
August 16, 2009 7:45 AM
BTW: When I'm teaching a dog to track the trail is only approx 10 - 15min old! When a dog knows how to track well then the track can be from 1hr - upwards old .=) I got good advice, preferably be too careful and teach the dog slowly and well than to go too fast forward and teach the dog mistakes at the smae time :=D
Here is a link on tracking: http://www.wikihow.com/Teach-a-Dog-to-Track
Tracking can be taught in many ways..the way I was taught is just one example!
August 16, 2009 7:46 AM
sorry spelling mistakes, I forgot to check the spelling with my program.
August 16, 2009 8:08 AM
This is BH if any one is interested :
http://www.highmesadogs.org/MondioTrial06/SchH.htm
August 17, 2009 2:56 PM
Tracey,
I love what you are doing but what I wonder about is your lab. Why is the BC getting all the training.
On the tracking stuff, ya might have the wrong dogs, and both of yours are, but lenght of time and the lenght of the tack won't matter, You have sight dogs, I do have a scent dog, and not worried about him picking up scent. Now for my BC that is more sight, maybe what you are doing might get it to work the nose better.
Remember with all you are doing, your lab does do some scent stuff. BC's are for heading and that is what their instincts want to do. You are doing well, I might try it some, but 10 feet is a nothing for your training. For something like it I did my whole house. Showed the dog one treat, and let the dog go to it. I have mentioned it is a good way for the dog to run off energy, looking for all the rest. Once they do it, now problem, once the sniffer gets goind it is just fun to watch. ..
I do love what you have done with your BC and until you see one do 40 to 50 head of cattle, all way big and move them from one field to another, ya won't understand what they are good at. Your field tring is great, dog should be good at that. From the training I have seen with cattle BC's isn't humand training, it is a pup working with an older dog.
I only have one thing on this though, ya forgot about the other dog. That is also a tremdious breed, and even if a sight dog, it is used often in bomb sniffing and such.
For me, I work with what your dog wants to be. I don't know real small dogs but I could learn. You do have a hunting dog, a sight one, a water one, but maybe has been used as a scent one. Then you have a sight dog, great dog, but smart and takes a bit of work cause thier desire is to get all in one area and move them when neccesary, on human command is what they want. Fences and stuff and working is what they are used to.
For me, you have done well but for all you have to know what your dog might want. If ya be old like me, then ya want a breed that is relaxed. If in a confined area, then get a small dog. If you want your dog to just go out and run, then get a hunting dog. My BC is now an old dog but I did some of what it needs. The other dog, predomitly a schnauzer, not a breed I have liked, we are working it out. But overall, both dogs get the same amount of work, affection, and such. One dog will never be able to be main dog,
Both are our dogs and they will have time to dog stuff that is good or bad, their choice. Bad, they get training, good they get, without a treat, rewareded with praise.
August 18, 2009 1:23 AM
Just a quick note Meccash. The BC is Tracey's dog and the Lab belongs to her partner, who wanted to train the dog himself!
But only last week the situation has changed and he has asked Tracey to take on the Lab's training too. So now she trains them both in turn (so she hasnt and doesnt forget about the Lab). The training for the BC (who is higher level) differs from the training of the Lab (who is working on obedience etc. to the BH trial standard) is a year younger and needs more basic training.
I hope I've got it right :)
I'm sure Tracey will reply too, when she gets a moment.
August 18, 2009 10:08 AM
Hi!
As Blizz just explained I have now taken over the labs training due to my fiance not being too well.. They are now both tracking and the BC is going in for FH1 competition next year. This is a track with sticks that have my scent on them. I disagree with your idea that BC is not a good tracking dog. One of my friends has a BC that has just achieved JK3! The lab is in the beginning of its training in every way, but no he hasn't been forgotten but he also has suffered with different illnesses that have caused a break in his training.. :=D
August 19, 2009 12:20 AM
Our BC is doing very well on tracking :) as for poor Rocky, I did him a simple beginners track yesterday and he enjoyed it but had trouble tracking. Rocky is doing really well in obedience though and is heeling for 15 steps and over. I am teaching Rocky very slowly because I want to do a good job first time around, not make so many mistakes like I made with our BC :=) BC's learn very quickly but they also are very hard to retrain.. We're still working on him coming in front of me to sit..heh!
August 19, 2009 12:29 AM
Agility
Our agility has came to a peek at the moment, in other words both dogs haven't progressed for a while. Due to the fact that our trainer hasn't been able to keep lessons for a while. Now that Rocky is allowed to jump again he has really enjoyed agility. With our lab I run beside him but with our BC I have to send him off to work independently. Teaching a dog to run in front of you is a task. With Rocky I have to be full of energy and bouncing around to keep him interested and with our BC I have to stay calm and be boring so he doesn't get too excited :=D
The sticks in agility can be made at home. Our first sticks were made from stick used on outside brushes... Problem being that the wood starts to go bad in time, so they need to be put in a dry area when not used..
Jumps can be made from two buckets upside down and a stick over the top of them.
August 22, 2009 9:39 AM
Tracking:
I asked my neighbours permission to use his field as he doesn't grow potatoes on it anymore. Today I did tracks for both of my dogs. My BC had his first corner today and he found it immediately :) After the corner something happened and he put his head in the air, but luckily dropped his nose back down on the field within a couple of seconds. At the end of the track I gave the DOWN command as the cat food was there ready. Thus seeing the cat food in it's packet caused him to disobey and so I had to command him at least three times :=)
Rocky bless him had real trouble tracking. I made him a very straight easy track but the poor boy had trouble catching the scent.. After a while he finally found the line and drove it, but he drove it far to fast and even though his nose was on the ground he wasn't working as well as he could! He has an excellent nose but I think I'll have to take away the cat food prize for a while until he calms down and concentrates more ! All in all it was interesting!!
Next year I am entering FH1 competition so before the snow hits Finland I need to get as much ground work done as possible!
Rocky is now being trained for BH so in between looking after my kids, running the household I have to find time for training my dogs.. I enjoy pushing myself to the extreme and I enjoy teaching my dogs new things!
September 3, 2009 6:16 AM
Our Bc has progressed well in tracking. I noticed the beginning of the track was always hardest for him, he would sniff around trying to find the track. So now I stamp with my feet at the beginning for a few minutes and then I progress forward, for the stamped area I put at least 4 treats down on both feet marks. Then for my first three steps I put more than normal amounts of treats down for him making it easier to stay on track. Approx half way down the track I leave a treat out and also near the end of the track. You need to reduce on the treats when the dog understands what he is supposed to be doing .=)
(If you go in for competitions the dog tracks someone else's prints not yours and treats are unfortunately unacceptable :=( )
At the end of the track is cat food in a closed container. When he has found it he has to go in to the DOWN position before I will open it and he has to stay DOWN while eating. This is the beginning of training him to identify objects on the track :=D I am now having a little break from tracking, breaks are important for the dog and often they help! Maybe next time when we track he will be even keener than before :=)
September 9, 2009 2:35 PM
Ok!
We had our over a week break from tracking and for the first time this year we did tracking on a strange field and to top it all my friends dog is on heat ( she was in a crate in her car), this just added I think to my tension not my dogs :=)
Anyway, my first track was straight approx 50 steps long and once again at the beginning I stamped the first spot for approx 1min and then layed several treats on both of my foot prints.. I then started walking one foot in front of the other and on the first three steps I put more than 1 treat to help Arttu get properly on the track :) I left one foot print without treats.
At the end of the track is the cat food in a closed container..
We setted off well on to the track, I had to correct him once for coming a bit off the track but other wise he was really keen :=) At the end he saw the cat food and under command he went DOWN. I fed him calmly the cat food stroking him long calming strokes at the same time.
I then layed another track this one was done in a similar way except it was more curvy and I did approx 70 steps.. like before I left out treats this time two steps. At the end was cat food like before :=)
He was really eager to get on the track he sniffed from the car all the way to the beginning of the track. I told him to sit like I always do and said "jälki" off he went.. this time I didn't have to correct him at all, his speed was perfect and his nose stayed on the ground and on the track :) Once again at the end I gave the DOWN command when he reached the cat food. He obeyed again immediately and stayed down.
I was all in all really surprised and happy! We have only done tracks this yr in our garden and on the neighbours field! Well done Arttu!! :=D
September 16, 2009 2:40 PM
Today I did a track for my BC in the garden.. When I made the track the weather was calm and there was no wind. I let the track get old for about 30min. When I took my dog out I noticed that a side wind had built up..this is where I made a mistake. I decided to put my dog on the track even though there was a wind :(
The poor dog couldn't stay on track because the wind was blowing the scent sideways.. all in all this track went terribly wrong :(
Luckily though in the evening we had a tracking session with a few friends from our club. I did a track 100 steps long and left three spaces with no treats. He eagerly went a long the track but once pulled his head up. I have been trying to think what caused him to do that, but still haven't found an explanation? All in all the track went very well. It's funny how such a highly active dog can calm itself down and concentrate on a track walking slowly and continuously smelling my foot prints .=)
September 20, 2009 4:24 PM
On Saturday I was working with our club. It was the FH 1 competition and we had five competitors but only one passed:=( The track is 1500 steps long with corners and 4 objects to be found. It was really amazing watching my friends dog working and passing :=) I'm really looking forward to trying this competition one day when we are ready! For some people competing means everything but for me it's just having fun with my dog :=) The other four dogs didn't pick the scent up at all at the beginning of the track, shame!
So really I think understanding how important those first steps are is really important! Preferably do short tracks at first and emphasize those first few steps with lots of treats :=)
September 24, 2009 3:53 PM
On Wednesday we had tracking. Arttu didn't track as well as he has been doing. I think it had something to do with agility the previous evening? He gets so worked up in agility and it takes him a day or two to calm down! He did the track but he wasn't as careful as he normally is :=( The track was 115 steps long and it had 5 empty spaces. The empties he didn't notice at all! At the end he went down by command and then he got his prize! I did another track for him today. This track was 200 steps long with 6 empties. Today he tracked much better than yesterday :=D Today he was very careful checking every step.. he walked in a straight line a long the track and at the end he went down after I gave him the command to go down.. he then got his prize.
Now that Arttu is tracking properly in other words his nose is all the time on the ground.. I give him more lead. I try not to control his movement anymore.. and I trust him, I know that he'll follow the track.. Trust is something that you both need to earn in training in other words both owner and dog need to trust each other :=D
October 2, 2009 4:07 PM
Hi!
This week we have tracked 4x. Each time the tracks have been slightly longer and gaps (steps with no treat) in between are getting longer too, the tracks are not just straight anymore, I'm now making curves in them more often :=D
The last time we tracked was on Thursday, for the first time we tracked on a muddy field, it was an interesting experience considering I'd left my wellies at home and had to do the track in my trainers :=) My legs felt like they were pulling an extra 4 kilo's along with all the mud stuck on the bottom.. I put treats on every step because my dog has never done a muddy track before, I wanted to play on the safe side and give him more help in staying on the track :=)
For just one second a thought hit my mind when I put Arttu sitting and prepared to send him off on the track.. The thought was: " he'll never lay down at the end of the track for the cat food" I instantly took that thought away as I know how dogs some how read our minds..heh! He tracked surprisingly well considering this was the first time .=) but when we got to the end of the track I couldn't get him to lay down in front of the prize..so Arttu never got his prize and I was annoyed with myself for letting that thought enter my mind :=(
On a couple of occasions he has gone down at the end of the track without me having to say anything, but Thursday evening even me saying didn't help! I sometimes think he should have been a female as he is so particular about where he lays and on what surface!
August 22, 2009 11:43 AM
Well let’s see. I’ve had rawhide treats in my back pocket… bent over to give my little dog a treat while the big dog stole treats from behind.
I’m certain it was a well planned conspiracy!
October 2, 2009 5:06 PM
My little dog simply can't bring itself to lay down on very cold surfaces. Many OTHER trainers will force dogs to obey regardless of the conditions. I DO NOT! My little dog is single coated and a short hair and has almost no protection from the cold. In every other condition he gives me a proper DOWN so I know he is not trying to disobey.
While I believe in good obedience, I also believe in understanding and working with the needs and weirdness of each dog. I have found that I get better respect, trust and cooperation from my dogs that way.
If the dog is clearly being stubborn then push it to obey. If the dog shows that it wants to obey but just can't do it, then as long as it isn't a fear issue then I say it's OK to bend the rules.
In the cold and snowy winter I take a thin foam play mat outside which is a very good insulator from the cold snow or ground. I have my big DOWN wherever she is at and I have the little dog DOWN on the mat and he is HAPPY to do it! With a little creative thinking, that problem is now SOLVED!
Be Well and Train Well.
Other safe and trustworthy advisors on this site include Tracey, Blizzard, Sandie, Dawg Pro and Doggone.
October 3, 2009 4:16 PM
I too believe in good obedience but knowing my BC just too well.. I knew that the surface would cause a problem. I tried 3 x but then gave in.. :=D I don't feel at all that I did anything wrong :=) In time he might get used to that kind of surface, we shall see :=D
October 20, 2009 4:11 PM
We are slowly coming to the end of tracking season..winter is knocking on the door and the ground is slowly getting hard.. My daughter did a REALLY HARD track for Arttu and to my surprise he tracked it really well..she had left 5-6 steps in between without treats ( he isn't used to that) and wow..he followed the track no problem :=D The only mistake my daughter had made was she had opened the cat food and emptied it on the ground.. so I couldn't get him to go down and stay down..never mind! If we're lucky we might still have a few tracking sessions left before the snow covers the ground :=)
Also sometimes I have let him track off lead..this takes the tension caused by me away..he can track in his own time but there isn't a prize at the end of the track!
Agility season has finished for us this year! We so have a hall about 40km away but last year Arttu had burn marks on his paws.. the surface isn't good for him :=(
October 21, 2009 12:25 AM
Well done!
I am sure your BC is now confident enough on doing track, that he will have no problem doing it properly with fewer treats along the way :=)
I still don't quite understand the difference in tracking and say following scent on ground.
Is tracking the way you do it a requirement for particular test or competition?
So your BC's nose must sniff each step on the track and NOT RUSH, otherwise he will get penalty points?
I know my GSD can follow my husbands or my footsteps back to the start of our walk in the forest no problem, but she does it at high speed and not sniffing each print, LOL!
Also not quite sure, why it cant be done in snow, the scent does stay in snow too, but maybe for not as long as on the ground.
Well done Arttu (BC) and you too!! :=)
October 21, 2009 12:47 AM
Sometimes my old gray cells work FAR TOO SLOW, LOL!!! I had replied before the little dim light bulb above my head gave a flicker or two :=)
I think I finally understand why it cant be done in snow or HARD ground. Because the footprint must make a clearly defined indentation on the ground! The dog must "count" each print with his nose, yes?
Lifting his head up high in between would carry penalty points? Hence doing it in deep snow is out of the question, as the dog would be more likely to lift his head up when moving on to the next print??
Am I getting it finally I wonder?
It's only taken a few months for me to understand doing track,please tell me if I'm on the "right track" now! :=)))
October 21, 2009 5:51 AM
:=D
Well all in all when a dog is on a scent it is tracking but for a competitive FH dog the tracking is more..hmm.. difficult! The dog has to keep the nose on the ground all the time in other words not allowed to take the scent from the air.. no breaks allowed..heh heh! It is a minus point when the dog puts his head in the air :=) It is possible for a dog to track on hard surfaces and in the snow but this does often cause the dog to pull its head up every now and then and also snow up the dogs noes isn't very nice :=D but police dogs..army dogs.. they all do scent tracking all year round but for them it isn't so exact on where the head is..is it up or is it down :=D for them its just finding the person ect..
So yes Blizz you have worked it out :=) there are also different types of scent tracking your dog tracks in the woods and my dog tracks on a field.. both are demanding in there own way :=) If some one wants to compete in FH then I don't recommend tracking in the woods because when a dog tracks in the woods it goes fast and doesn't smell every step..where as on a field the dog is calmer and smells every step :=)
October 21, 2009 6:47 AM
Today I decided to see just how good my BC:s nose really is..I took dry cat food and walked around our garden (one foot in front of the other not normal walking steps) every now and then I dropped cat food on to a step :=) I used new and very different surfaces..first was the grassy surface..then there was gravel and finally sand..it was really interesting..he was let off lead to search and he immediately found all on the grassy surface but the other 2 were harder.. I let him work for over 15min on the grass before calling him back and sending him again..he then finally understood that there was a track on the gravel and in the sand.. When he worked it out he found all the treats :=D Tracking has to be fun and sometimes it's nice for the dog to get a completely new challenge and a bit of help from the trainer :=D
November 3, 2009 1:43 AM
putting this topic back on for Grace to read about tracking :=)
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