I wasn't going to respond to this because you made a good point on prey drive. I never thought of a toy as that, but think you are right.

The only problem I see in this is the dog, white one, has a stronger prey drive than the black one, for alive creatures. Took that dog about 2 to 3 years to play with a ball or stuffed animal.
The other had some street smarts, what we know, she was on the streets for a month or maybe more. She also had prior toy training, was a great ball catcher from day one.

I do think you are right on the prey drive. Only difference I might have is that dogs learn that, or wild ones do from the other dogs. Mine learned it from the other dog, not us. We didn't care if it played with a toy or not.

You know my stance on treat training, I am more into rewards as in Good Dog. Treats are after all is done, not before or maybe during. You don't push a dogs rear down and teach sit and give a treat when you push the dog down. You give the treat when they do it on their own. To me a dog should not be doing something that it sould find as fun to get a treat. It should do it because the human and he/she are having fun together. Dog fun has limits, and the human limits on it don't really change the fun, just redirect it to what the human wants.

So that being said, I do agree on the prey stuff, just never took it that way. I will use treats in training, but get off of them as quick as I am able. That is me, and not everone. I want my dogs to do stuff because they want to please me, and it is far more fun to do it that way than to be forced by a treat. Forced is probably not the word I wanted but the one I thought of.

I have a question. Why even start treats? None of our dogs, as I've said they've all been expected to be well behaved and for the most part obeyed "the rules" or however a dog thinks of that.

I've been using the treats for her potty thing (little set back yesterday) and now she expects a treat everytime she goes outside.

I have noticed she is a beggar, btw. spoiled dog. Pet me pet me pet me, love me love me love me , look at me look at me look at me, play with me.play with me play with me. That's been stopped. Mom forgot to pay attention for a bit, just like with the kids

So, aren't toys for playing and treats for tricks? (halloween pun there) Isn't being good just being part of this family (pack)?

We use ANYTHING that motivates a dog at that moment. A path of best cooperation thing. I can and have trained dogs without treats or motivational items but it sure is faster and more effective with them and easier too.

Even if I'm holding treats, my dogs can't beg for them unless commanded to do so or I put the treats away or command them to do something other then beg to get them. It’s a training preference.

My little dog will learn to do anything if it means I'll throw the ball I'm holding so I use the ball for new training and reinforcement. Another preference but one which might not work for you.

If your dog is now a beggar and you don't mind then so what. If you do mind then it's time to move to next level. What’s your preference?

We all believe as you do that being good is just being part of the family. We may not always agree on the "best" way or choice of preferences used to get there but we all still get there. :-))

I have a saying that: "Even the very worst trainer will "eventually" produce a very good dog if he is patient, consistent and committed to achieving his goals."

My biggest personal preference is that I like to use things that work effectively in seconds, minutes, hours and days instead of those that take weeks, months and years to achieve the same result. I’m just weird like that!!! LOL

I just want to get my 800 words worth in here too.
The term Treats here can mean any item that motivates a dog to perform correctly as soon and effortlessly as possible.

FUN! Hey we’re all about fun here. Just watch K-Nine’s video and say that dog isn’t having fun and getting treats ta boot. Fun doesn’t need to exclude treats. In fact just running that agility course was a Treat for that dog.

If you don’t want to use rewards then don’t. My preference is to have well behaved dogs period. I don’t care if they want to obey or if they want to have fun or if they want to please me or not. It’s not a doggie democracy. “I want and I need child safe, well mannered, happy and well balanced dogs.” Fun is stuff we do just for the fun of it. Like everyone except Meccash, food and any manner of other treat or rewards are used to get the job done and done faster than not using them in most cases. Cesar may resist using them because he’s just that good and doesn’t need to. No one here is a Cesar Millan.

To say (imply) that NOT using treats is somehow nobler or produces a better trained dog is hogwash. Both Tracey and K-Nine have done videos that say it isn’t true. Blizzard’s dog, my dogs and Doggone’s dogs have all had treat training too that say it isn’t true. None of these dogs are beggars but we can command them to beg. None of them require the treats to be obedient. It was (past tense) a training tool and now they are trained without needing that tool.

I would hope that we don’t need to start quoting scientific proof or that everyone has to do a video to prove their points. Well that one backfired for K-Nine since the intended person never watched it, but the point here still remains.

As a rule we all say do what “you want” for your own dogs. Just be really careful about how you start preaching that as advice to other dog owners desperate for help. If you’re still trying to train basics after 5-10 years and we can and did do all that before our dogs turned 1 year old then you probably shouldn’t use your way as advice for others. At that rate their dog could die long before you way ever solves the problem.

Treats, toys, fun, praise and anything used as a reward is just a tool and not a good or bad thing by itself. Meccash can talk all the pride he wants in not using food treats and that’s OK by me as long as he also keeps in mind that he is still using praise and attention as a reward. It’s still a TREAT. He’s just using a different tool which may not always be the best or most effective or even the most efficient tool for the job at the time. Not using motivational items is usually the harder route.

Nope! I’m not arguing. I’m not picking a fight. Just discussing contrasting points of view.

If not using food and toy rewards works for you and your dog and also makes you feel good then by all means DO IT you will no doubt get everyone’s blessing. But what about the person who needs your help and doesn’t have your knowledge and skill? Are you going to tell them to use the harder to do methods or the ones that are likely to solve their problem quickly and just as effectively or actually better?

In this forum it’s usually more like “do as I say, not as I do” because we are adapting to the knowledge and skill level of those who need help. Like most of the others I can get away with slacking off because I can put things right back on track very quickly. Would I ever advise a slacked training approach. NEVER! For example; “Letting dogs be dogs” [basically letting them do much of what they want] is a slacked training approach and can’t be used to rehabilitate dogs so it should not be advised. Use it for yourself if you like but don’t advise it to others.

OK… I’m ranting… My points are that there are very few right and wrong things about dog ownership as long as you are happy with what you have to live with. Right and wrong becomes very clearly defined when you start giving advice to others. They have to solve their problems first before they can even consider using your/our lifestyle methods as a model.

Wow Dawg Pro...you really did get your 800 words worth :=D

Usuallyconfused: I've always used treats and toys..it's my way and I find it a quick way to get results..My BC does obedience without treats too..he has to as he competes :) But please tell me more on how you get your dog/dogs to work without treats..I'm just interested because I have never taught a dog without treats :=)

pulling this topic up so it doesn't fall off :=)

Meccash: In all fairness there were many of your posts, not so long ago, where you said your "never" used treats to train and that you only gave treats because you felt like it and that was all.

Also, no one ever gave you a bad time for not using treats for yourself. That only happened when you gave "don't use treats" as advice for other people who needed to motivate their dog. Not everything can be made FUN enough to get a dog to do it. Discipline isn't ever fun but has to be done.

It looks like you are spending more time thinking about what you want to say before you type it all out. Your recent posts have been a bit easier to read and understand, and your spelling is better too. You seem better focused on the topics and don't wander about like before which is also good.

I am also glad to see that you seem to be realizing that there is "or can be" a BIG difference between what we do for ourselves versus what we may need to advise others to do.

Let me give an example. I don't really care if kids pull my dog's fur, ears and tail because my dogs are trained to take all that and the kid's are not in any danger... BUT I won't let kids do it because it's a really bad habit that can get them bitten or attacked by other dogs.

Same thing for having kids hold out their hand for a dog to sniff. Yeah that's works great for all of OUR dogs and kids but it's really bad advice to give for kids and all dogs in general. I INTRODUCE my dogs to kids with a DOWN and I walk them around the kid to get their scent... but the kids don't touch them until I'm ready to introduce the kid to my dog and I am in a protective position first.

Overall, your recents posts and what you say you believe are a long awaited improvement over what you have said in the past. I hope it KEEPS getting better!!!

Professionally, there is still allot of stuff that I really really disagree with but I'm taking the wait and see approach and am trying to offer mostly positive comments.

I don’t want to argue over the details. The are tons of old posts I could call up to show what was really said or not. I’m TRYING to avoid that. My point was that you flip-flop on what you say you do and what you say you believe. It’s hard to know how what you really do believe or not. That’s all.

I think you misread and/or misunderstood what I wrote about kids and dogs. I did not say it was OK for kids to do that stuff to a dog. I said my dogs can handle it if it does happen. I said it was a bad habit to allow kids to do that stuff even if a dog can take it. Both the dog owners and children’s parent need to prevent all that because the next dog the kid goes up to may be the one that bites. There is nothing that says that a kid needs to be allowed to pet and touch every dog they see!!!

When it comes to kids and dogs, the type of aggression doesn’t matter one bit. Any aggression between a kid and dog is bad news for both of them. That’s why I don’t want kids sticking their hands toward a dogs face to pet it. They might get bitten. When a kids leans over a dog to reach down to pet, leaning over a dog is a dominant display which the dog might not like and that’s how most kids get their faces bitten.

You seem to be under the wrong impression that everyone else here wants to keep kids and dogs away from each other. That’s false. We just want them to meet each other as SAFELY as possible first. Then they can have fun together.

When we advise, it must be done while thinking about what could happen with any dog and not just what happens with our own dogs. It would help for you to think more about what could happen with other dogs instead of what always happens with your own dogs. No one else has your dogs so the safety issues are much different.

Just like you said that’s it’s better to error on the safe side and you wont bend over around that one Ram. That’s all we have ever said here about dogs. Better SAFE than sorry! In the past you have disagreed with this approach which baffles me to no end.

How can being safe instead of sorry be a bad thing?

K-Nine, I won't ever say I have not differed in comments, I know I have. A person that asked for advise who got a pit bull with a kid that is one year old is far diffent than a person that has a dog, and starts a family.

I was going to answer Tracey that only one person can be a pack leader, that is pure not true. My wife and I are and anyone we meet as a human is pack leader to the dog. Doesn't matter if they don't like dogs or do, they are boss when coming into our house.

I do give my dogs a vote sometimes, like on bed or not, but when it comes to people that we invite into our house or meed outside, and we are freindy with, that human is pack leader, even if they don't know it.

I am consistant more than you might think. For a person who gets a pit bull with a one year old child, that is dump, if they ask for advise. A person who has a dog, and then has a child, then you train both.

I was going to respond to Tracey that only one can be pack leader, and that is it. That is not correct. My wife and I are pack leaders, I do most of the training,. On friends, if we say Hi and invite them into our home, then they are pack leaders. Dogs do not have a choice or vote. Dogs can get on furniture, part of house rules, if human comes in and wants to sit, dogs get off.

You mention that you do kids with dogs at down. WHY? My dogs do down if a person dosent't like dogs, or is afraid of them. I don't have to command. They have an on off switch, people who like dogs pet them, those that don't then you lay and watch to see how you can make friends. Dog, in our house do not have a vote, they do what we say. For stuff they are allowed, it is up to them and their wants. Both are allowed on the bed, only one sleeps there, other chooses the floor. That is a choice they can make.

Overall I do not differ in notes. If I fully think the person is not a pack leader or has no clue, I always say dog trainer or a freind that might help you. I aways say socialize your dogs, big time if I am able.
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I have probably never trained a dog the same way with each dog I have had. The goal was to make all social. Pack leadership was not a point, if we liked a person, and that person was invited into the house, that person was a pack leader, even if they had no idea what that ment.

Most on our block will tell me my dogs are really good, got that from a farm girl that is good with animals and took mine over, off leash to visit and also visit the contractors she was home for. I told a dog it went too far from me and she got on me that I didn't understand how good my dogs were. I do undersand, somewhat, but my dogs will never not be trained.

Yes I do differ in my notes. A big dog in an appartment, I am against that. A person who works 12 ours a day or more, as I once did, then you have to make allowances for your dog. I did my first with outside. When that didn't work, I did another dog, that worked. I eventually did dog door, and then business trips were not a problem, if two to three days long.

For a dog, you make the rules the dog will abide by in your home. Dog does not differ, but a human can change rules, I have told my wife, that can be done once, not twice.

I mentioned, after you did your kid thing with your dogs and pulling tails and such, the quote, responding is not just your dog, it is with all dogs. Did you respond correctly when you said kids could pull and do what they want with yours cause they were traiined.

Yes some notes might get anwered differently by me. I will see a dog and the training will be differnt. I have two now, both need a bit diffent thought on my part on how to make bad into good.

Overall on your response, I don't think you can ever say I have not said safety is not the most improtant thing you do with a dog. I keep mentioning that dog is a dog and dog is to be respected.

I did not say your were wrong on dropping your dogs on meeting, I just said I don't have to with mine. This probably has nothing to do with training, my dogs just know what is fun and not and a person that is not petting is not fun, so just lay down and look at the person to figure out how you and make the person fun. I

My dogs just seem to like to be dogs. Their life is having fun. Treats are not necessary cause having fun is better. Fun is always better than a no or hey, for for now, a point of my finger.

For all my dogs, treats were having fun. If they met one person that was fun, then more was better. If they met one dog that was fun then more was better. If they didn't like a car, two didn't, then ya make it fun. On our boat, it was not fun the first time, but once thay got over it, following me with no choice, they had a great time, and jumping over the wet stuff was well worth it on a boat ride and wind in hair.

I have never had a dog trained. All of mine have always been a work in progress. For what I don't let the dog even think they have a choice on, they have to like to visit with people and dogs, that is what wife and I like. If we didn't then I problably would not care. We like to fish so we thought the dogs to see that as fun, even if lots of laying around, dog seem good at that mostly anyways.

Dog taining is mostly easy. You decide on the rules and all people in the house know the rules. If the rules change, then all people have a vote and agree. For me changing and then back, can only be done once. Setting rules are not set in stone, but they do not change day to day.

So for me, my dogs have fun, that is what I love about dogs. They teach you to have fun when you have a bad day at work.Dogs live for fun, they don't live for food, but water, a differnent matter. Overall with all dogs and any breed, if you train a dog, one thing is fun, maybe pleasing the one with the treat, or not getting hit, other is not having fun.

I might oversimplfy this a bit. Dogs of mine have fun when I do. They will find fun in what I do, sans wirting on the computer. For me though, making training just pure fun, is very important to me. I don't want a treat to be the reason, but that is me. So far for all my dogs they seem to really like to be socialized, more peple or dogs to experience and have fun with. They know it is way more fun to not defficate in the house than if they do.

To end, I hope you do not have a perfect dog, I will never have one. No one gets perfect, there is always learning to do.